Are there any apple scams

any or some apples

miky01

New Member

Cockonut

New Member

«Are there any apples in the kitchen» is the correct form

You cannot use «some» when you’re referring to things that are «countable» (that you can count)

panjandrum

Lapsed Moderator

«Are there any apples in the kitchen» is the correct form

You cannot use «some» when you’re referring to things that are «countable» (that you can count)

Yes, you can.
Are there any apples in the kitchen?
Yes, there are some apples in the bowl on the table.

In a question, we say «any».
In the answer, we say «some».

chamyto

Senior Member

In a question, we use «any apples», not «some apples».
Yes, you can.
Are there any apples in the kitchen?
Yes, there are some apples in the bowl on the table.

In a question, we say «any».
In the answer, we say «some».

Yes , but in offers we say «some» ( correct me if I´m wrong )

Would you like some fruit ?

pops91710

Senior Member

Yes , but in offers we say «some» ( correct me if I´m wrong )

Would you like some fruit ?

chamyto

Senior Member

Myridon

Senior Member

«Are there any apples in the kitchen» is the correct form

You cannot use «some» when you’re referring to things that are «countable» (that you can count)

chamyto

Senior Member

pops91710

Senior Member

Alxmrphi

Senior Member

To be strictly grammatical, the books say you have to use any in questions and negatives, and some in all other cases, though many many people don’t follow this rule when it applies to questions, though adherence rates are higher for negatives.

You’re more likely to hear some used in a question, rather than a negative (but it’s also not uncommon to hear some used in negatives, especially in informal spoken language). But the grammarian’s rule to remember is..

Question/Negative -> Any
Declarative -> Some

I personally use some in questions quite often, probably exclusively in spoken language.
So your question can be viewed in two ways, from a view from the standard language, or reflective of how people use English. From Standard English, only any is correct in your example, but it’s definitely not the case that many people use the some version.

MugenKaosu

Senior Member

To be strictly grammatical, the books say you have to use any in questions and negatives, and some in all other cases, though many many people don’t follow this rule when it applies to questions, though adherence rates are higher for negatives.

You’re more likely to hear some used in a question, rather than a negative (but it’s also not uncommon to hear some used in negatives, especially in informal spoken language). But the grammarian’s rule to remember is..

Question/Negative -> Any
Declarative -> Some

I personally use some in questions quite often, probably exclusively in spoken language.
So your question can be viewed in two ways, from a view from the standard language, or reflective of how people use English. From Standard English, only any is correct in your example, but it’s definitely not the case that many people use the some version.

That’s really interesting! Here, in Brazil, what our teachers tell us is:
«For questions: in most cases, you should use any; you should only use some if you’re offering something and expect a yes: ‘Would you like some coffee?’
For negatives: use any.
For declarative: use some.»

I guess people in Spain are taught the same thing.

Alxmrphi

Senior Member

Fabulist

Banned

Thomas Tompion

Senior Member

That’s really interesting! Here, in Brazil, what our teachers tell us is:
«For questions: in most cases, you should use any; you should only use some if you’re offering something and expect a yes: ‘Would you like some coffee?’
For negatives: use any.
For declarative: use some.»

I guess people in Spain are taught the same thing.

Your teachers are giving you good advice, MugenKaosu, which will take you a lot of the way to getting things right.

There are one or two exceptions to these general rules, one of which concerns the question in the OP.

Which is correct:

Are there some apples in the kitchen?
or
Are there any apples in the kitchen?

Answer: both questions can be correct, but they are appropriate to different circumstances:

Are there some apples in the kitchen? is what you say when you think it very probable that there are some. The question is expecting an answer of Yes .

Are there any apples in the kitchen? is what you say when you have no idea whether there are any or not. The question is neutral about the probable answer.

panjandrum

Lapsed Moderator

Do you have any news for me? -> A general question when I don’t expect any particular reply.
Do you have some news for me? -> A more purposeful question — perhaps I am expecting to hear about exam results, the birth of a child, the results of some medical investigation, .
Do you have any time tomorrow? -> Suggests that I know you are always very busy.
Do you have some time tomorrow? -> I’m expecting that you will have time tomorrow.

The difference is not very strong — in many circumstances either would do.

abenr

Senior Member

To be strictly grammatical, the books say you have to use any in questions and negatives, and some in all other cases, though many many people don’t follow this rule when it applies to questions, though adherence rates are higher for negatives.

You’re more likely to hear some used in a question, rather than a negative (but it’s also not uncommon to hear some used in negatives, especially in informal spoken language). But the grammarian’s rule to remember is..

Question/Negative -> Any
Declarative -> Some

I personally use some in questions quite often, probably exclusively in spoken language.
So your question can be viewed in two ways, from a view from the standard language, or reflective of how people use English. From Standard English, only any is correct in your example, but it’s definitely not the case that many people use the some version.

Thomas Tompion

Senior Member

Alxmrphi

Senior Member

The most well-known polarity items are those that are sensitive to negation and related expressions. These polarity items divide into those that must co-occur with a «somehow negative» expression («negative polarity item», NPI) and those that cannot («positive polarity item», PPI). An example of an NPI is the English word any. It is ungrammatical if it occurs in a sentence without a «negative» expression (A star «*» in front of a sentence means the sentence is believed to be ill-formed):

John doesn’t have any potatoes.
*John has any potatoes.

One says of an NPI like any that it is licensed by a negative expression. NPIs are also usually licensed by questions , as in:

Does John have any potatoes?

I can point to other discussions about this, too.
When I was doing my TEFL we had quite a substantial portion of discussion on this rule, I’m quite surprised many people (that I know know a LOT about English grammar, from reading earlier discussions), aren’t aware of this.

This is a typical basic worksheet for students, as you can see from the top, it lists the rule, «some» in declarative , «any» in negatives and questions , and with the noted exception that «some» is used in an offer, which is an exception to be noted.

About.com has an article on the use of these quantifiers, as well, same summary with declarative / negative,interrogativer as well.

Learning English — Workbook 2 has an explanation, too.
The Teacher’s Grammar of English also has multiple references to this rule (first example, p. 91-2, p. 99)

@Fabulist: there’s no such thing as a sub-standard dialect!

Thomas Tompion

Senior Member

Alxmrphi

Senior Member

Well, I’d have to first point out that my understanding of the word grammatical is very particular, and almost certainly different from most other people that use this forum. Generally that term means something different in a descriptive world (where I live) than in a prescriptive one (where a lot of other people live), so I would call all dialect variations grammatical if they have a consistent backing. I don’t hold the view that a native speaker «breaks» grammatical rules, they just subscribe to different ones than others, i.e. not the ones we have in the literary language.

So for that reason, in my understanding of language-use, I would say they are grammatical, but maybe not in the subscribed ultra-prescriptive world of English Teaching and the like. I only wanted to point out that I’ve read a lot of language analysis in my linguistics course, and also when I was doing my TEFL, and I had come across this rule quite a few times and wanted to report it, as people like to learn how to be seen as prescriptively acceptable English users on this forum.

On a more personal note, however, anyone who doesn’t use these rules for me would still be grammatical, just not in the framework of the standard literary language.
I’m not sure if I’ve answered your question or not.

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Is there apple?

Ivan_I

Banned

As far as I know ANY as well as A can be used with a countable singular noun.

Any schoolchild would know that.

But what happens in here?

1) Is there any apple in the basket? (wrong if it means ONE APPLE)
2) Is there an apple in the basket? (OK)

Why is it that ANY in sentence 1 is not supposed to be used? Is it because APPLE can be uncountable as well?

owlman5

Senior Member

Ivan_I

Banned

Hello owlman5! Thank you for your answer. Unfortunately this time I haven’t managed to put it clear enough, this is why I think you missed the point of the question.

1) A plural form of nouns is out of scope in my question a priori. Hence, we are not to consider «apples» here at all.
2) Do you agree that 1 is wrong while 2 is ok if only one apple is implied?
3) I know «Is there an apple» doesn’t sound very idiomatic, but it’s correct in terms of grammar rules.

entangledbank

Senior Member

Ivan_I

Banned

RM1(SS)

Senior Member

Yes, but some has a different meaning in that sentence.

There is some man in the room. — There is a man in the room, but I don’t know who he is and didn’t care enough to find out.

PaulQ

Senior Member

Yes but this would mean There is a man in my room and I have no idea who he is, he could be anyone.

‘Some’ is operates in the same way that entangledbank gave for ‘any.»

As RMS has said, some (like any) has different meanings.

pob14

Senior Member

Hello owlman5! Thank you for your answer. Unfortunately this time I haven’t managed to put it clear enough, this is why I think you missed the point of the question.

1) A plural form of nouns is out of scope in my question a priori. Hence, we are not to consider «apples» here at all.

Ivan_I

Banned

Ivan_I

Banned

Yes, but some has a different meaning in that sentence.

There is some man in the room. — There is a man in the room, but I don’t know who he is and didn’t care enough to find out.

Why then can’t SOME have that meaning which you call «a different meaning» in the case with «apple»? I fail to follow the logic.

There is some apple in the basket. — IS WRONG
There is some man in the room. — IS OK

pob14

Senior Member

Because we don’t typically think of apples as unique individuals, as we do with people.

«Where’s Fred, my favorite apple?»
«Well, there’s some apple or other in the basket, but I don’t know if it’s Fred or not.»

Also, if apples were crushed or diced in preparation for making applesauce, this could work:

«I need a half cup of crushed apple for this recipe. Is there any apple left in the basket?»
«Yes, there’s some apple in the basket.»

Ivan_I

Banned

Would this one work?
There is some car in the street.

PS: By the way, does SOME really imply uniqueness?

pob14

Senior Member

I think it would be considerably less common than «there is a car in the street,» unless there was some reason to wonder about its identity:

«Hey, Ivan, there’s some car in your reserved parking spot.» This would suggest that I believe it’s not your car, but I don’t know whose it is.

Ivan_I

Banned

I think it would be considerably less common than «there is a car in the street,» unless there was some reason to wonder about its identity:

«Hey, Ivan, there’s some car in your reserved parking spot.» This would suggest that I believe it’s not your car, but I don’t know whose it is.

That’s what I am talking about. You see, in post 4 is said rather categorically by entangledbank’s that
There is some apple in the basket.
But later it turns out that it’s OK to say

There is some man in the room.
and the following can be OK too
There is some car in the street.

entangledbank

Senior Member

Ivan_I

Banned

Can it be the case

any — one of a certain group

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— Five apples have just fallen off the tree and one of them fell in the basket. Which one of them is in th basket?
— There is any apple in the basket. (There can be any apple. )

a — just one (without a group)
There is an apple in the basket.

Myridon

Senior Member

Ivan_I

Banned

Myridon

Senior Member

PaulQ

Senior Member

1.
A: — Pass me a hammer.
B:- Which hammer, I have three hammers
A: — Any hammer -> it doesn’t matter which hammer -> one hammer from amongst many hammers. -> a random hammer.

2.
A: I saw a man with blue hair today.
B: Which man?
A: I don’t know, some man. -> it doesn’t matter which man -> one man from amongst many men. -> a random man.

3.
A: What sort of fruit do you have?
B: Grapes, oranges, pears…
A: do you have any apples -> a random quantity of apples

4.
A: What have you in your bag?
B: Apples… [opens bag] take one.
A: Can I take any apple? -> a random apple of my choice.
B: Yes, any – they’re all much the same.

5.
A: Any man can lift this weight. -> a random man.

Ivan_I

Banned

Ivan_I

Banned

I have come across new context where «ANY» fits in.

1) «Is there a red car in the street?»
«No.»
«A blue car?»
«No.»
«A green one?»
«No.»
«Is there any car in the street?»
«Yes, there’s a yellow one.»

I hope you agree that «Is there any car in the street?» is OK here?

2) Now what is the difference between these two

A) Is there an apple on the table that you would like to take home with you?

B) Is there any apple on the table that you would like to take home with you?

Andygc

Senior Member

Ivan_I

Banned

Well, what about «book»?
A) Is there a book on the table that you would like to take home with you?

B) Is there any book on the table that you would like to take home with you?

PaulQ

Senior Member

A) Is there an apple/a book on the table that you would like to take home with you?

B) Is there any apple/book on the table that you would like to take home with you?

It is a question of (i) countable nouns as opposed to (ii) weakly and (iii) strongly uncountable nouns combined with the two meanings/uses of «any» plus the multiple meanings of «a/an» together with the guidance concerning an uncountable noun.

Bear in mind that «a/an» can also mean «any» «A cat is a good pet» = «Any cat is a good pet.» (There is a slight difference in nuance but here it can be ignored.)

Advice is strongly uncountable:

1. I like advice
2. *I like advices
3. *I like an advice
4. *I like an advices
5. I like any advice
6. *I like any advices
7. *I like good advice
8. *I like good advices
9. *I like a good advice
10. *I like a good advices
11. I like any good advice
12. *I like any good advices

Book is almost always countable

1. *I like book
2. I like books
3. I like a book
4. *I like a books
5. I like any book
6. I like any books
7. *I like good book
8. I like good books
9. I like a good book
10. *I like a good books
11. I like any good book
12. I like any good books

Wine is weakly uncountable (it is frequently used in both forms)

1. I like wine
2. I like wines
3. I like a wine
4. *I like a wines
5. I like any wine
6. I like any wines
7. I like good wine
8. I like good wines
9. I like a good wine
10. *I like a good wines
11. I like any good wine
12. I like any good wines

Take any book -> Any + singular countable noun = “it doesn’t matter which”

“take any books (that you want.”) -> Any + plural countable noun (usually + qualification) = “It doesn’t matter which quantity of”

Do not take any book(s) -> Negative + any + singular/plural countable noun = “no quantity” -> Take no book.

“Do you have any advice for me? Any + uncountable noun = “a quantity of”

“I don’t have any advice for you.” -> Negative + any + uncountable noun = “no quantity of” – I have no advice

1. Know what you want to express
2. Get clearly in your mind the two meanings of «any/some» and «a/an».
3. Ask yourself if you intend to use the noun as countable or uncountable.

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