Iphone 13 pwm flicker beat

iPhone 13 Pro iPhone 13 Pro: Screen PWM flicker at ALL brightness

travis64

macrumors 6502a

PwmMen

macrumors member

with the iPhone X,XS,11Pro,12 Pro i have a lot of problems with my eyes.
With the iPhone 13 Pro is after one week all perfekt. No problems with my eyes.

For me is the iPhone 13 Pro a perfekt iPhone, and i am so happy to can use an OLED Screen.😎

Sorry for my english, my english is not so good.

happy orchard

macrumors 6502

with the iPhone X,XS,11Pro,12 Pro i have a lot of problems with my eyes.
With the iPhone 13 Pro is after one week all perfekt. No problems with my eyes.

For me is the iPhone 13 Pro a perfekt iPhone, and i am so happy to can use an OLED Screen.😎

Sorry for my english, my english is not so good.

Your English is good enough for all of us to understand and be happy for you.

I, too, am having a better experience with the 13PM than I did with any of the previous OLEDS, which makes me happy but still suspicious: can this actually be better? Enough better?

Hope it continues to go well.

PwmMen

macrumors member

Your English is good enough for all of us to understand and be happy for you.

I, too, am having a better experience with the 13PM than I did with any of the previous OLEDS, which makes me happy but still suspicious: can this actually be better? Enough better?

Hope it continues to go well.

PwmMen

macrumors member

orbitalpunk

macrumors 6502a

PwmMen

macrumors member

MICHAELSD

macrumors 601

jamesrick80

macrumors 68030

Taz Mangus

Suspended

PwmMen

macrumors member

I think the normal 13 is working with DC-Dimming.
Unless it is really wired, and i don’t understand Apple.
The iPhone 13 Pro ist perfekt for me.

Maybe you have problems with the 120Hz Motion Display. You can deactivate it and test it with 60Hz.

LFC2020

macrumors G5

Zollotech reckons the pro models don’t affect him when it comes to PVM, it’s barely noticeable.

1 min 30 second mark.

nicklear

macrumors newbie

Got my iPhone 13 Pro yesterday, had a very strong reaction — blurry vision, tiredness, headaches. Then read up about all this as I’d never heard of it (upgrading from old Android phone).

Tried 100% brightness, low white point, tried turning off motion effects, fixed 60Hz, turned off 5G, everything basically. Nothing worked. Sadly I will have to return it.

Whatever the theories, just seeing how you personally react to a phone is the only real way to know if you can use it.

PwmMen

macrumors member

naituil9

macrumors newbie

A single number doesn’t speak to anything. I am curious to learn what that 60Hz stands for. Does it mean 60Hz with low Mod% at brightness higher than a threshold X% (like iPhone 12 Pro so DC-like dimming) and 510Hz PWM at brightness below X%?

Or maybe it’s just an placeholder before the full review is released, simply because it’s likely iPhone 13 and 13 Mini shares very similar display panel.

now i see it

macrumors G3

jm31828

macrumors 6502a

I’ve read through some of the pwm threads here- is the consensus mostly that those with mild pwm sensitivity are good with the 13 pro, with only the most sensitive still having issues?

I couldn’t use the xs due to what I discovered to be some pwm sensitivity. I have had a 12 mini for the last year and I adjusted brightness to 90% with 95% reduce white point and it has been fine for me, very comfortable.
I tried a 13 mini and it was just a bit uncomfortable no matter what I did with brightness, so I’m wondering if the 13 pro with its higher flicker frequency will indeed be comfortable. Tempted to give it a try!

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iPhone 13 Pro iPhone 13 Pro: Screen PWM flicker at ALL brightness

RyanG

macrumors 6502a

Chang is a frequent flier for PWM related posts. Happens every year. Any sensitivity to the “issue” is a severe minority, hence why you never see it become mainstream. He’s a troll and never posts scientific evidence related to the topic.

You can clearly see that his join date was in 2017, when Apple switched to OLED. It’s a troll account, nothing more.

Wise_rice

macrumors newbie

I am happy for you, if you don’t have this problem. You probably also don’t need a wheelchair. But you should still respect the people who do.

Here is on of the many studies about PWM (which is a bit different from OLED flicker, I think because there is no consistent backlight for the whole screen, because each pixel lights up individually):
dial
and
NCBI

and the quick an dirty summary of it (Source: Notebookcheck):

LASIK (no C) itself is neither good or bad. But it optimizes the way light will go through your lens and hit your Macula lutea (the «sensor» of your eye). This is the reason why you don’t need glasses anymore. Also it might leave small scars on your eyes surface which can make your eye more dry. Not necessarily related to PWM, but people become more sensitive/conscious about their eyes once they had a problem/surgery on them.

There are technical solutions to increase the flicker rate beyond the «sensible» threshold. LG and Xiaomi showed us that (partial?) DC dimming is possible on OLED screens. Yes, it will use a little bit more energy. But IMHO It’s worth it.

ghanwani

macrumors 68040

QuattroRS6

macrumors newbie

turkeybossman

macrumors newbie

1. iPhone 13 Pro is using 480hz PWM dimming at all brightness.
2. In iPhone 12 series, we can set a high brighness using DC dimming, and then use Reduce White Point to stimulate brightness adjust to avoid PWM flicker. But with 13 pro, there’s no DC dimming at all.

I think eye strain on iPhone 13 pro will be much serious than iPhone 12/11 pro.

I’m somewhat a of PWM crazy person. I’ve been aware of having this issue for almost 4 years. The source in the OP is not very well versed in PWM. 480 hz flicker should be sufficient to prevent issues with probably over 95% of people. I tried the white point trick on both pro models of the 12 pro last year and it was a no go for me.

I’ve tried and returned so many phones it’s insane. I always reference notebook check and honestly, any phone I’ve ever used that gets to the high 300’s has always been fine. The probelm is most phones are sub 300. Pixel 4 XL, Pixel 5, OnePlus 8T have all had similar flicker rates and those never bothered me. If this is truly at 480 hz, then you guys should celebrate, it means I can upgrade my iPhone 11 and stop using Chinese phones with a dedicated DC dimming mode (Xiaomi)

Источник

iPhone 13 Pro iPhone 13 Pro: Screen PWM flicker at ALL brightness

eret9616

macrumors newbie

ipad pro 2020 12.9 = 58,820hz
ipad pro 2021 12.9 miniled = 19,190hz
macbook pro 16inch 2019 = 131,700hz

well.. 480hz and 240hz.. isnt that horrible

2021 Apple 12.9-inch M1 iPad Pro with mini LED display shows poor display characteristics including reduced PWM and response times

Apple MacBook Pro 16 2019 Laptop Review: A convincing Core i9-9880H and Radeon Pro 5500M powered multimedia laptop

eret9616

macrumors newbie

happy orchard

macrumors 6502

Just posted on another thread slo-mo videos I just recorded comparing 12PM and 13PM. I want to share with anyone who might find this helpful. This just might be amazing. Fingers crossed.

Thread: Eye-strain while using iPhone X

naituil9

macrumors newbie

Whoever says 480Hz PWM on iPhone 13 series is better/improved over 12 Pro is UTTERLY WRONG.

The negative impact of low-freq PWM doesn’t only correlate with the frequency but also (as pointed out above) with pulsation coefficient and modulation. iPhone 13 Pro/Max is terrible at both for ALL brightness due to the nature of LPTO.

To dive a bit deeper, iPhone 12 Pro/Max uses DC-like dimming above 25% brightness so that even though there is still PWM, the pulsation coefficient and modulation (

trali

macrumors newbie

Could you please prove it?

Based on measuring in this video:

Mod% in iPhone 13 Pro is (almost always) 16, sometimes it’s 30, but not 100.

From IEEE 1789 (for frequencies between 90 Hz and 1250 Hz):

jrajpaul

macrumors member

Whoever says 480Hz PWM on iPhone 13 series is better/improved over 12 Pro is UTTERLY WRONG.

The negative impact of low-freq PWM doesn’t only correlate with the frequency but also (as pointed out above) with pulsation coefficient and modulation. iPhone 13 Pro/Max is terrible at both for ALL brightness due to the nature of LPTO.

To dive a bit deeper, iPhone 12 Pro/Max uses DC-like dimming above 25% brightness so that even though there is still PWM, the pulsation coefficient and modulation (

Mastrociambella

macrumors newbie

Whoever says 480Hz PWM on iPhone 13 series is better/improved over 12 Pro is UTTERLY WRONG.

The negative impact of low-freq PWM doesn’t only correlate with the frequency but also (as pointed out above) with pulsation coefficient and modulation. iPhone 13 Pro/Max is terrible at both for ALL brightness due to the nature of LPTO.

To dive a bit deeper, iPhone 12 Pro/Max uses DC-like dimming above 25% brightness so that even though there is still PWM, the pulsation coefficient and modulation (

naituil9

macrumors newbie

Could you please prove it?

Based on measuring in this video:

Mod% in iPhone 13 Pro is (almost always) 16, sometimes it’s 30, but not 100.

From IEEE 1789 (for frequencies between 90 Hz and 1250 Hz):

Mod%

Picture below is result from a meter that measures not only flicker index but also Mod %. Quick translation for you:

Frequency: 480.19 Hz
Modulation: 97.6 %
Percent Flicker: 95.29%
Flicker Index: 0.306 (Somewhat in line with the Russian folks’ video, you see)
Risk alert: High Risk

What’s worse is that OP mentioned this kind of high Mod % is detected at all brightness level, which as I mentioned earlier is probably a drawback of LTPO display technology. And to also cut cost on the lower end iPhone 13/mini model, Apple implemented the same PWM policy (480Hz, High Mod % at all brightness) on the entire line (even though in theory iPhone 13/mini could use the same as iPhone 12 Pro)

Mr.Simple

macrumors member

Mastrociambella

macrumors newbie

ignaciobarrena

macrumors 6502

I upgraded from iPhone 12 to an Iphone 13 Pro. Didn’t have any issues with the 12 but I’m feeling some kind of eye-strain with the 13 Pro.

Will give a few days and also let’s see if notebookcheck uploads their review.

macrumors 6502

Good question! I think the confusion here is different metrics.

The video you quoted was measuring «Flicker Index» (or Pulsation Coefficient), which is a different metrics from Modulation (Mod %) / Flicker percentage, which IEEE 1789 was using along with frequency to determine risk level, just as you mentioned. They were not using «Flicker Index». Below are the definition taken from http://www.bio-licht.org/02_resources/info_ieee_2015_standards-1789.pdf:
View attachment 1848445

Picture below is result from a meter that measures not only flicker index but also Mod %. Quick translation for you:

Frequency: 480.19 Hz
Modulation: 97.6 %
Percent Flicker: 95.29%
Flicker Index: 0.306 (Somewhat in line with the Russian folks’ video, you see)
Risk alert: High Risk

What’s worse is that OP mentioned this kind of high Mod % is detected at all brightness level, which as I mentioned earlier is probably a drawback of LTPO display technology. And to also cut cost on the lower end iPhone 13/mini model, Apple implemented the same PWM policy (480Hz, High Mod % at all brightness) on the entire line (even though in theory iPhone 13/mini could use the same as iPhone 12 Pro)

kerplunknet

macrumors 6502

After reading all of this, it really sounds like Apple engineers have no f-cking clue what they are doing when it comes to this topic. The alternative is that they know exactly what they are doing. Both horrible scenarios for consumers.

Thank you to @changguangyu and @naituil9 for showing what is really going on.

trali

macrumors newbie

Indeed, the device from video (Radex Lupin) measures Pulsation Coefficient, but it is another name for Mod%, not flicker index.

Quick translation for you:

Frequency: 480.19 Hz
Modulation: 97.6 %
Percent Flicker: 95.29%

Mod% and Percent Flicker are the same thing, but you have provided different values in your translation. Why?

now i see it

macrumors G3

trali

macrumors newbie

siksik6

macrumors member

Returning my iPhone 13 Pro. Really disappointed with Apple this hasn’t been addressed yet.

Have never had a problem with Pixel devices, so Google will get my money this year instead. I refuse to use a two year old phone, full stop.

Defying

macrumors newbie

I have post concussion syndrome and am light sensitive so I’m forced to use lowest brightness on my phones. Got my 13 Pro Friday and I think I’ll have to return it. Was excited about 120Hz but the PWM backlight feels so weird. My 12 mini seemed to be okay but something about the 13 Pro makes me feel not too great after using it for some time.

Thing is, I checked both of my phones with their slow motion 240FPS cameras and my 12 mini flickers violently at the lowest brightness. Seen here:

TroyBoy30

macrumors 68020

naituil9

macrumors newbie

Indeed, the device from video (Radex Lupin) measures Pulsation Coefficient, but it is another name for Mod%, not flicker index.

Mod% and Percent Flicker are the same thing, but you have provided different values in your translation. Why?

You can see the device model name right in the picture: OHSP-350BF.
The very right picture should correspond to the «Flicker» mode used in measuring iPhone 13 Pro. (with RiskTip turned on)

Apologies if I did not translate accurately. These definition can be all over the place and I am no expert in this field. The bottom line I’d say is the Mod % metrics (max-min)/(max+min) is close to 100% for iPhone 13 series at all brightness.

I wish PWM is improved over time just as much every one of you do because I really enjoyed the high refresh rate on the iPhone 13 Pro I just got

Spectrometer blue light irradiance and Flicker tester

now i see it

macrumors G3

Wise_rice

macrumors newbie

ipad pro 2020 12.9 = 58,820hz
ipad pro 2021 12.9 miniled = 19,190hz
macbook pro 16inch 2019 = 131,700hz

well.. 480hz and 240hz.. isnt that horrible

2021 Apple 12.9-inch M1 iPad Pro with mini LED display shows poor display characteristics including reduced PWM and response times

Apple MacBook Pro 16 2019 Laptop Review: A convincing Core i9-9880H and Radeon Pro 5500M powered multimedia laptop

Hey, in English you use a comma to help visualize 1000 values in math. It is different from the European way of writing where a comma is used to indicate decimal places.
So, the ipad Pro 2020 flickers 120 times faster than iphone 13 pro. A Percentage as high as 50000 is totally imperceivable by the human eye, it blends in together. I only worry about frequencies less than, say 1000.
And also the iPad only uses PWM at low brightness settings. Above a certain percentage it uses DC dimming. You can read about it in the Notebookcheck reviews of those devices.

iPhone 13 pro = 480 hz
ipad pro 2020 12.9 = 58820 hz

What many people here need to understand:
Flicker only matters in low brightness environments. If you have a bright room, your eyes iris will be small, letting in less light. PWM does not bother you at all, during that time.
It gets dangerous during the night, when there is low ambient light and your iris opens up to let more light in. Having a bright pulsating phone screen close to your eyes will affect you if you are sensitive.

Good news is, that the 13 pro will look less blurry while scrolling. That alone will help many people, because the eye perceives a sharper image and has to do less «processing», which can cause migraine for me, personally.

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